I don't know, maybe I'm too old or not fashion-y enough, but the idea of a brand offering community sounds bizarre to me. Genuine and resilient communities are hard work to create and maintain. Brands (like politicians) could not care less about us as people. The whole vibes economy that we're living in now makes me cranky because it's seeped into absolutely everything. And I don't think I'm the only one -- there's probably a reason people are gravitating to all these 70s/90s aesthetics. To me those were the last periods where we were going through messy social shifts, expanding culture gradually on the ground rather than just posting crap on social media and never leaving the house.
I'm going to halt my middle-aged-lady rant there because you're a much better and more nuanced writer about these topics, even laid up doing off-brand NyQuil shots. Thanks for another thoughtful piece. (Also garlic tea was always my mom's go-to for colds; mine is saline nasal washes. Feel better! ❤️)
I totally agree—brands providing community is a pretty wild idea. I’ve been thinking a lot about the ’90s, too. Back then, there was a real skepticism toward corporations that completely flipped in the 2000s. Now, it feels like we might be shifting back to that earlier mentality, with people finally getting burnt out on brands promising salvation. At least I hope so? Love hearing your thoughts. also GARLIC TEA! my grandmother used to love that. i will have to drink some and try a saline wash. thanks for the genius tip
I think the 'brands offering community' part is....brands trying to act like they're subcultures i.e. ACTUAL communities, some of which often use brands as a visual signifier (skaters, surfers and their associated skate/surfwear). Like they want to rebrand 'consumer base' as 'community', and in some cases it actually works (see: Glossier c. 2014,) because they actually do figure out how to make it feel like the brand is your friend or the ticket for entry to cool-people groups (see also: American Apparel c. 2007, Brandy Melville c. 2017).
In high fashion, the closest to an actual 'community' I've seen is the Comme des Garçons/80s Japanese designer holy trinity fans, and again I can see why each individual designer has the fans they do - they're run on fairly uncompromising design principles, still not quite mainstream, and almost a subculture in their own right.
i think you've nailed it per usual lily! after i wrote this i was like "how am i even defining community here?" and i think its more subcultures like youre displaying with so many perfect examples here
Love this comment, I feel the same way...I think it's possible for communities to develop around brands, but it would not feel genuine if a brand tried to seed one. The most genuine "brand community" I've ever seen is the one around Elizabeth Suzann, which is a slow fashion branded founded by designer Liz Pape - she was brilliant at engaging her community (including making her patterns available when she temporarily shuttered her brand and talking about fair wages for her workers), but for the most part, the community that grew around her brand was incredibly organic and I think many of them met up in real life too. I think it was possible because the brand was built on values that were bigger than selling as many items of clothing as possible...it was also about how we want to live out our lives.
so agree such a great example.. i love liz! i appareciate her transparency and good info about the process and experience of havin a brand like that too.
So appreciate this part: “Are these looks truly for the communities they honor if they can’t afford them? Should rich white boys in Brooklyn be rocking them while sipping $14 cold brew infused with creatine?”
In all my excitement for Chavarria’s show, I completely overlooked that part! I wish one could ask that question directly. But then I feel like one could ask the same questions of Sandy Liang, Wales Bonner, etc. (both designers who’ve shared that their work is inspired by immigrants & their experiences).
But THEN, I also have to wonder, If the dominant culture or white designers are allowed to create expensive fashion lines inspired by their experiences (like vacationing in the Hamptons), shouldn't BIPOC and other underrepresented designers have the same freedom without facing scrutiny about who can afford their clothes? White designers routinely draw inspiration from their cultural backgrounds without question (most of the time)! And yet, I’ve seen more Notes on here questioning Chavarria’s line than I have about Tory Burch or Ralph Lauren. Anecdotally, ofc. Not sure what the actual numbers would be!
In all my earnestness to build community and criticize this industry, I think im also trying to be mindful of this. I wonder if change also looks like allowing Chavarria and other designers from historically marginalized communities to make bougie ass stuff because *we* (BIPOC and other underrepresented communities) deserve that, too. Even if we can’t afford it! Haha.
Wow, you’ve raised such an important point! I completely agree that everyone should be held to the same scrutiny, and that BIPOC designers can absolutely draw from their marginalized experiences to create high-end clothing. For me, a key part of the conversation is: does a shirt actually costs $500 to make when people are paid fairly? Willy has talked about how hard it is for him to survive financially, and I know others making ethical clothing who barely make a profit. He also sells $29 hoodies alongside $700 pants. If we all knew the true value and cost of things (when everyone is paid fairly at every step), and there was price transparency, this conversation would be so much easier to navigate!
Ill or not, this was such a thoughtfully and well-written essay. I very much appreciated the information about Mr. Chavarria. I am very interested in learning more about him and his designs because of you. Thanks very much!
Maybe this is really sad to admit, but I personally always HOPED my fave brands wouldn’t change in the off-chance I’d be able to afford something from them one day. If I could, I’d want to be able to get the same type of clothes I’d grown up seeing and coveting. But with that said, I’d always imagined 2024 would be looking a lot more Fifth Element, and instead it’s just like the same shit I was wearing in high school but worse quality.
Agree there’s a lot to unpack with the Willy Chavarria moment and the larger fashion industry. At the same time it feels so good to be genuinely moved by the beauty he created, and the way he framed the beauty of Chicano culture that white/fashion world people have overlooked.
I have similar questions about Chavarria's collection and at the same time, I am completely inspired that he would use the runway to counter false narratives about immigrants and encourage people to vote. Not only is the message needed, it's refreshing to see someone take an actual risk and show us what they care about.
I do wonder why Ralph Lauren etc. continue to even have runway shows if their collections are pretty much the same from year to year. Is it for the clout? That doesn't make complete sense given how expensive it is to even show at NYFW and how many fashion houses have money problems. It's not sustainable at this point but so many labels don't know how (or are prevented from?) to reinvent the wheel. That's disappointing for an industry that should be about innovation and creativity.
i am completely inspired and adored it despite the questions. it is so so necessary and we have to start somewhere!
same q's about RL. so much of what happens now just seems like it does because "thats the way its always been" im not sure if it was amy odell who made a prediction about brands moving away from so many shows at nyfw? i kinda hope its true...
this was the willy chavarria review i needed to read! not my idea, but i saw a great comment somewhere online about how the big shoulder pads in this context could be interpreted as the POC working class who "carry the weight of America on their shoulders."
i felt similarly about old sandy liang collections that featured chinatown/her grandmother. no pawpaw is going to buy a $600 fleece, but it felt refreshing to see the community i grew up around visible in high fashion media. it's all so complicated!
hope you feel better soon!!!! sending you a virtual chicken noodle soup x
oh wow thats so fascinating about the shoulder pads and weight carried!
It is complicated! I LOVED these collections and shows—nuances and all—and honestly, if there were full price transparency, where I knew that a $600 fleece meant everyone was paid fairly and quality materials were actually used, i think that would help.
I read a note yesterday (really wish I could find it) about how The Row was just valued at $1B and how that valuation is built on the aspirational image they are selling; they both sell their clothes for high prices but, in doing, convince people who can’t afford the clothes that they should strive to. It was said better than that but it reminds me of the community selling you pointed out.
There is a way for designers to sell community that actually brings people together and community that feels exclusionary.
RL has always been about the lifestyle-he’s one of the creators of that link between fashion and the aspirational lifestyle he sells. I would expect that his clothes would be better quality than those see-through trousers, though.
So true about transparency! I mean I’m into his collection, but should I just buy a pair of Dickies instead? That’s why designers need to be more upfront.
Wow. So many incredible insights in this essay. I struggle to think of any brand that creates community. I remember when the Hill House dresses were huge (guess they still are?) and there was this “community” around everyone who wore them, but really it was more a statement around class, privilege and status. (I also owned and wore a nap dress at one point). As someone who has been to NYFW and to shows, it was one of the most exclusionary experiences of my life. It’s only a community for the people at the top. And I don’t even know if you can call that a community. It’s more like a cult.
love your thoughts on the hill house dresses (still popular, yes!). i’d really like to hear more about your nyfw experiences. and yeah, if we made a venn diagram, i’d say there’s probably more overlap with a cult than a community—haha!
Thank you for a smart, thought provoking post. I think you hit on it towards the end of your piece; for the most part all this community building is just another marketing angle. I’ve sat in too many meetings talking about just that. Loved your take on Willy Chavarría, maybe he’s the exception. I’m rooting for him!
I don't know, maybe I'm too old or not fashion-y enough, but the idea of a brand offering community sounds bizarre to me. Genuine and resilient communities are hard work to create and maintain. Brands (like politicians) could not care less about us as people. The whole vibes economy that we're living in now makes me cranky because it's seeped into absolutely everything. And I don't think I'm the only one -- there's probably a reason people are gravitating to all these 70s/90s aesthetics. To me those were the last periods where we were going through messy social shifts, expanding culture gradually on the ground rather than just posting crap on social media and never leaving the house.
I'm going to halt my middle-aged-lady rant there because you're a much better and more nuanced writer about these topics, even laid up doing off-brand NyQuil shots. Thanks for another thoughtful piece. (Also garlic tea was always my mom's go-to for colds; mine is saline nasal washes. Feel better! ❤️)
I totally agree—brands providing community is a pretty wild idea. I’ve been thinking a lot about the ’90s, too. Back then, there was a real skepticism toward corporations that completely flipped in the 2000s. Now, it feels like we might be shifting back to that earlier mentality, with people finally getting burnt out on brands promising salvation. At least I hope so? Love hearing your thoughts. also GARLIC TEA! my grandmother used to love that. i will have to drink some and try a saline wash. thanks for the genius tip
I think the 'brands offering community' part is....brands trying to act like they're subcultures i.e. ACTUAL communities, some of which often use brands as a visual signifier (skaters, surfers and their associated skate/surfwear). Like they want to rebrand 'consumer base' as 'community', and in some cases it actually works (see: Glossier c. 2014,) because they actually do figure out how to make it feel like the brand is your friend or the ticket for entry to cool-people groups (see also: American Apparel c. 2007, Brandy Melville c. 2017).
In high fashion, the closest to an actual 'community' I've seen is the Comme des Garçons/80s Japanese designer holy trinity fans, and again I can see why each individual designer has the fans they do - they're run on fairly uncompromising design principles, still not quite mainstream, and almost a subculture in their own right.
i think you've nailed it per usual lily! after i wrote this i was like "how am i even defining community here?" and i think its more subcultures like youre displaying with so many perfect examples here
Love this comment, I feel the same way...I think it's possible for communities to develop around brands, but it would not feel genuine if a brand tried to seed one. The most genuine "brand community" I've ever seen is the one around Elizabeth Suzann, which is a slow fashion branded founded by designer Liz Pape - she was brilliant at engaging her community (including making her patterns available when she temporarily shuttered her brand and talking about fair wages for her workers), but for the most part, the community that grew around her brand was incredibly organic and I think many of them met up in real life too. I think it was possible because the brand was built on values that were bigger than selling as many items of clothing as possible...it was also about how we want to live out our lives.
so agree such a great example.. i love liz! i appareciate her transparency and good info about the process and experience of havin a brand like that too.
Totally agree on 70s/90s and saline nasal rinses
ill give it a try! thanks for the tip!
So appreciate this part: “Are these looks truly for the communities they honor if they can’t afford them? Should rich white boys in Brooklyn be rocking them while sipping $14 cold brew infused with creatine?”
In all my excitement for Chavarria’s show, I completely overlooked that part! I wish one could ask that question directly. But then I feel like one could ask the same questions of Sandy Liang, Wales Bonner, etc. (both designers who’ve shared that their work is inspired by immigrants & their experiences).
But THEN, I also have to wonder, If the dominant culture or white designers are allowed to create expensive fashion lines inspired by their experiences (like vacationing in the Hamptons), shouldn't BIPOC and other underrepresented designers have the same freedom without facing scrutiny about who can afford their clothes? White designers routinely draw inspiration from their cultural backgrounds without question (most of the time)! And yet, I’ve seen more Notes on here questioning Chavarria’s line than I have about Tory Burch or Ralph Lauren. Anecdotally, ofc. Not sure what the actual numbers would be!
In all my earnestness to build community and criticize this industry, I think im also trying to be mindful of this. I wonder if change also looks like allowing Chavarria and other designers from historically marginalized communities to make bougie ass stuff because *we* (BIPOC and other underrepresented communities) deserve that, too. Even if we can’t afford it! Haha.
Wow, you’ve raised such an important point! I completely agree that everyone should be held to the same scrutiny, and that BIPOC designers can absolutely draw from their marginalized experiences to create high-end clothing. For me, a key part of the conversation is: does a shirt actually costs $500 to make when people are paid fairly? Willy has talked about how hard it is for him to survive financially, and I know others making ethical clothing who barely make a profit. He also sells $29 hoodies alongside $700 pants. If we all knew the true value and cost of things (when everyone is paid fairly at every step), and there was price transparency, this conversation would be so much easier to navigate!
oh totally!! Price transparency is for sure one of the more important aspects of this convo!
zoë your comment read my mind!
Also I have no idea if any of that makes sense—your NyQuil head thoughts are clearer than mine on a good/non sick day!! 😅
aw thats sweet. it makes total sense, i'm gonna be thinking about your comment for a while!!
Ill or not, this was such a thoughtfully and well-written essay. I very much appreciated the information about Mr. Chavarria. I am very interested in learning more about him and his designs because of you. Thanks very much!
Thank you! Yes, he’s fantastic. He primarily focuses on menswear, but I loved his show—especially seeing how the pieces moved on the runway.
ditto to all points!
Maybe this is really sad to admit, but I personally always HOPED my fave brands wouldn’t change in the off-chance I’d be able to afford something from them one day. If I could, I’d want to be able to get the same type of clothes I’d grown up seeing and coveting. But with that said, I’d always imagined 2024 would be looking a lot more Fifth Element, and instead it’s just like the same shit I was wearing in high school but worse quality.
I was fully ready for the orange wig and medical tape look to come through—but nope...just low-rise jeans 🤡
Agree there’s a lot to unpack with the Willy Chavarria moment and the larger fashion industry. At the same time it feels so good to be genuinely moved by the beauty he created, and the way he framed the beauty of Chicano culture that white/fashion world people have overlooked.
it felt SO good to be moved! i adored the show and still feel the power of it!
I have similar questions about Chavarria's collection and at the same time, I am completely inspired that he would use the runway to counter false narratives about immigrants and encourage people to vote. Not only is the message needed, it's refreshing to see someone take an actual risk and show us what they care about.
I do wonder why Ralph Lauren etc. continue to even have runway shows if their collections are pretty much the same from year to year. Is it for the clout? That doesn't make complete sense given how expensive it is to even show at NYFW and how many fashion houses have money problems. It's not sustainable at this point but so many labels don't know how (or are prevented from?) to reinvent the wheel. That's disappointing for an industry that should be about innovation and creativity.
i am completely inspired and adored it despite the questions. it is so so necessary and we have to start somewhere!
same q's about RL. so much of what happens now just seems like it does because "thats the way its always been" im not sure if it was amy odell who made a prediction about brands moving away from so many shows at nyfw? i kinda hope its true...
this was the willy chavarria review i needed to read! not my idea, but i saw a great comment somewhere online about how the big shoulder pads in this context could be interpreted as the POC working class who "carry the weight of America on their shoulders."
i felt similarly about old sandy liang collections that featured chinatown/her grandmother. no pawpaw is going to buy a $600 fleece, but it felt refreshing to see the community i grew up around visible in high fashion media. it's all so complicated!
hope you feel better soon!!!! sending you a virtual chicken noodle soup x
oh wow thats so fascinating about the shoulder pads and weight carried!
It is complicated! I LOVED these collections and shows—nuances and all—and honestly, if there were full price transparency, where I knew that a $600 fleece meant everyone was paid fairly and quality materials were actually used, i think that would help.
and ty so much!! <3
🔥🔥🔥
<3
I read a note yesterday (really wish I could find it) about how The Row was just valued at $1B and how that valuation is built on the aspirational image they are selling; they both sell their clothes for high prices but, in doing, convince people who can’t afford the clothes that they should strive to. It was said better than that but it reminds me of the community selling you pointed out.
There is a way for designers to sell community that actually brings people together and community that feels exclusionary.
Yes! It was brilliant and it’s here:
https://substack.com/@marketappointment/note/c-68900173
All of this has been floating around my brain, too--thank you for stating it so well!
ty for reading!
RL has always been about the lifestyle-he’s one of the creators of that link between fashion and the aspirational lifestyle he sells. I would expect that his clothes would be better quality than those see-through trousers, though.
Excellent review of Willy Chavarría! 💕
agree on RL! and thank you!
i loved reading this! fellow latina here. thanks for introducing me to willy’s work and for the questions to ponder
im so glad! enjoy his work!
"why is it that so many rich designers’ idea of the future just means even bigger shoulder pads?" !!!
hahaha its so crazy. i guess we will just be all shoulders in the next 100 years
So true about transparency! I mean I’m into his collection, but should I just buy a pair of Dickies instead? That’s why designers need to be more upfront.
or should you buy willy x dickies? :P https://www.dickies.com/willy-chavarria
and yes love him but would also love the industry as a whole to embrace some more price transparency!
Oh! haha! cool! thank you! I’ve been off IG for over three years…….no clue what is going on anymore lol
worthy tradeoff for mental sanity!
Wow. So many incredible insights in this essay. I struggle to think of any brand that creates community. I remember when the Hill House dresses were huge (guess they still are?) and there was this “community” around everyone who wore them, but really it was more a statement around class, privilege and status. (I also owned and wore a nap dress at one point). As someone who has been to NYFW and to shows, it was one of the most exclusionary experiences of my life. It’s only a community for the people at the top. And I don’t even know if you can call that a community. It’s more like a cult.
love your thoughts on the hill house dresses (still popular, yes!). i’d really like to hear more about your nyfw experiences. and yeah, if we made a venn diagram, i’d say there’s probably more overlap with a cult than a community—haha!
Thank you for a smart, thought provoking post. I think you hit on it towards the end of your piece; for the most part all this community building is just another marketing angle. I’ve sat in too many meetings talking about just that. Loved your take on Willy Chavarría, maybe he’s the exception. I’m rooting for him!
ty for reading! i am so rooting for him too <3