Are Brands Coming For The Group Chat?
How Long Til Skittles DMs To See How Your Tuesday Is Going?
If you’re reading this newsletter, there’s a decent chance you are familiar with fashion Substack chats.
Substack chats are a continuous stream of conversations and a goldmine of insights into what's on people's minds—whether they're seeking info on sizing, sharing style inspiration, or need honest opinions and recs. It's like tapping into a brain trust of some of the most fashion-forward women out there, all primed to offer up personalized shopping advice.
Need help deciding on a green dress for a wedding in Mexico? I’m sorry, but your real friends have fulfilling careers and children! They may deliver a lukewarm response in 12-16 hours! The substack chat? You’ll get expert advice in seconds.
Are you playing paparazzi with a stranger's shoes at Starbucks because you're too chicken shit to just ask a person where they’re from? Don't sweat the potential restraining order —just send your creepy photo to the chat! The espionage squad has your back. I’ve seen miracle workers of the chat identify dresses, shoes, and bags that I thought would be thrown to the “mysteries of the universe.” Team work makes the dream work.
When I first found these chats, I was hooked. I got push notifications anytime someone asked a question or needed advice. I loved seeing the answers. It felt like Internet 1.0 to me. There isn’t any formal organization or categorization, so the chat is like the wild, wild west! Read it now or weep later (although they are rolling out a search! feature!) Before there was a search bar, I resorted to storing my favorite suggestions and observations in a completely unhinged spreadsheet just to keep track of everything.
After a while, the flood of push notifications and tsunami of recommendations was becoming a game of whack-a-mole, so I had to shut it down and press mute. Though disorganization lessened its charm, I still find it enjoyable to check in and participate occasionally.
About a month ago, there was this article in Vogue Business about how women are using these chats to escape the algorithm:
Substack is becoming a destination for fashion insiders and enthusiasts to get shopping and style advice. Where search engines and social media apps are increasingly algorithmically cleansed to the effect of a monotonous trend-driven sameness—accounts have thriving communities providing inspiration and advice from both creators and their audiences, who are willing to pay a monthly fee for better recommendations, access to a like-minded community and a unique PO
I reached out to my readers for their thoughts and to discuss how they interact with chats in the Total Rec chat (how meta!) Here’s some general feelings my readers had about the chats:
Many related to my experience of diving headfirst into the chats, only to find themselves drowning in a sea of recommendations and chaotic threads. The initial excitement cooled as the volume of information overwhelmed. People ended up checking less frequently, though still finding occasional enjoyment!
Readers say recommendations with affiliate links in the chats are giving them predatory MLM ick.
Quite a few people find resale posts annoying.
There were valid concerns about the chats feeling like an extension of the Instagram brand algorithmic bubble.
They lamented the intrusion of brands and commercialization into what had started as an organic, non-commercial zone.
Eventual commercialization is always a legitimate concern. The Vogue Business article, mentions that Substack chats could offer a significant opportunity for brands to engage. While it's not yet clear how they will capitalize on this, brands are drawn to the platform's organic conversations and personalized recommendations and are eager to get involved.
The key challenge for Substack is finding a balance between nurturing genuine conversations among women and allowing these brands to engage with and profit from this vibrant group. But is it possible to achieve both?
I’m definitely not sounding the alarm or griping that Substack is careening toward becoming terrible! We simply don’t know how or if this will be handled. But the Vogue article and conversation has me thinking of what is called the “enshittification of the internet” coined by Cory Doctorow, who used it to describe how digital platforms can become worse and worse:
Basically every platform started this way. Google, Facebook, Amazon, Instagram. Google search used to be very helpful and results were indicated by a kind of automated peer-review called PageRank. Now, the first page of results from a search for “high-quality saucepans” produces a myriad of “sponsored” items, ie advertisements. Instagram was a fun way to connect with your friends and see their photos. Now it’s a crazy video platform with tons of ads and creators who are walking, breathing advertisements.
We’ve touched on this topic plenty here before. Today, I want to shift gears and explore a new vision for how things could be different.
I started this newsletter because I was personally fed up with being talked at instead of talked with, and I believe a lot of women (+ beyond) feel the same way. We’re craving conversation, not a one-way sales pitch. Just look at the substack chats! They were completely created by the readers themselves, a byproduct of the writer’s newsletter. There’s no commercial agenda. They began as a space free from the relentless focus on treating people as potential buyers, and as a way for consumers to gain insider information about products they can't immediately access. They offer a refreshing alternative to the common practice of depending on a single, dominant tastemaker or influencer who dictates to the masses which shirt to buy to stay relevant. They make fashion feel a bit more inclusive and diverse.
I think we crave spaces where we aren't constantly targeted with sales pitches, pressured into purchases because we're unsure of our style as our bodies change, or bombarded with buying opportunities during vulnerable times in our lives. I've been eager to find a space where I can freely explore and collaborate with others, seeking inspiration and advice for styling without encountering any snark or snobbery.
I envision a space designed to assist everyone in making informed purchasing decisions. Unless we choose to live like hermits, crafting our own shoes from twigs, we all inevitably need to buy some things. Thus, we must navigate constant choices together. Many of us lack the time and resources to thoroughly evaluate brands in a culture obsessed with relentless consumption but lacking guarantees. How can we make these decisions smarter and more humane?
In the last few weeks, I've been pondering... what if I created an online space for consumers? I've been picturing a modest and completely independent website. It would be a consumer report-style platform, but with crowd-sourced recommendations and a space where individuals can freely review and access information about consumer purchases, devoid of any commercial biases. It would be a versatile hub where you could seek advice on anything from choosing a dress for a wedding to breaking out of a style rut.
It got me thinking: what if you could build something in collaboration with the very people who will use your creation, knowing they helped envision and shape it too? What if you moved away from traditional top-down models and embraced the flexibility that comes from being free of commercial interests or investors? What if you genuinely asked people what they wanted and truly listened to their responses?
And then I heard the voice… Why would you ever directly ask people what they want? It’s kind of a radical idea. In the copywriters room, I used to hear “NEVER ask a customer what they want…because NO customer actually knows! Tell them instead!” Was that merely a convenient narrative concocted by companies looking to exploit customers for profit? And haven't we taken that idea to an extreme, as evidenced by the 'enshittification' of the internet?
In full transparency, I've started and sold two businesses. They were on the smaller side, so I'm not Scrooge McDuck writing this from my pool full of cash, but I have been fortunate and privileged to enjoy the journey of learning and building in the business world. Recently, I discussed my idea for a product review platform, with a couple of former mentors. Both of them dismissed it as a ‘nonviable’ or ‘bad’ idea, arguing that it couldn’t be monetized or generate very substantial revenue.
Honestly, as a businessperson, I think it is a little naive to say “just do what the people want! Dance in a circle and hold hands, and you will see the sun!” Many businesses are genuinely trying to meet customer demands and listen to their feedback. There are countless reasons why amazing businesses fail. Yet often, when someone dismisses an idea as not viable, what they might actually mean is: no, that won’t make you rich. And what often ruins so many existing great experiences and businesses for customers is this plain old greed.
Yes, building websites and launching projects requires significant time and money. Running businesses is costly and it can be hard to turn a profit, and it's only fair that everyone involved receives fair compensation. But after they are paid adequately, is it necessary for them to also become incredibly rich? Why should that need to be the case?
I’ve experienced major financial highs and lows throughout my life—from dining at the French Laundry in Napa with celebrities like Kourtney Kardashian and Travis Barker nearby, to nights where my “dinner” was going to bed early because sleep was the only affordable option.
When I focus on projects with success or profit as the end goal, I find myself in a poor emotional state. I feel constantly starved yet always empty. There’s no shame in focusing on financial gain if that’s what feels right for you. I am grateful to have achieved some stability in my life, especially in a society that often undervalues women.
But I feel like we’re encouraged to aspire not just for a good life, but for THE LIFE™—you know, the kind you see others enjoying. The one where you're lounging poolside in Mexico at an exclusive resort, surrounded by the ultra-wealthy, signaling to everyone that you are successful! And cool!
And I got a taste of this! I got paid! And then I got to hang out with some people who really got paid and then they expensed trips for me to go places where people really, really got paid. I got to see people living THE LIFE™. But when I arrived and looked around - all I could see were the palest, richest people on earth complaining about how their grilled cheese was just not grilled enough. And after having my fill of these experiences in the company of these super wealthy people, I felt so dehumanized. I was supposed to aspire to this life that was actually so sterile, so isolating and so boring.
I’ve recently been working some catering gigs for my friend's growing company, they're short on staff and I’m in between projects— It’s been invigorating and humanizing to connect with down-to-earth coworkers who've chosen a different path, sometimes prioritizing flexibility and time for their art. My interactions with these people are night and day compared to those who were so focused on their business ventures or their second house or their next crazy vacation. To me, real wealth is vitality. Am I truly alive, driven by the genuine substance of everyday life, not just the marketed concept of THE LIFE™?
It’s been quite a while since I realized that an important life goal for me isn't to aspire towards the lives of the wealthy, exclusive and powerful. Now, with clearer perspective, I realize how much my focus in life was on extracting value, which subtly led me to view life in binary terms, always considering what I could gain from it. I think this mindset is abnormal, yet it has become widely accepted in our society. I'm not glorifying poverty, but why isn't it acceptable to simply have a modest goal…like a place online that brings joy and helps some people, even if it doesn't generate vast riches? Or why do immediately think about monetizing something like a Substack chat? Not everything has to shoot to the moon, can it be lovely just as it is right now? Perhaps my 'bad' idea for a website will never materialize because we fail to prioritize values like togetherness and enriching or savoring over the pursuit of wealth and success. Or maybe it actually is just a plain old bad idea? Both can be true.
So, will I build something that won’t promise a million users or a million dollars? It could be fun…but I’m not entirely sure. It may never come to fruition—honestly, at this point, it’s more of a thought experiment1. But I believe it’s a valuable and worthwhile experiment to dream of the possibility of online spaces that mirror the values we aspire to in our daily lives. Just like worker-owned businesses where employees and customers have a real say, can you imagine a world where consumers actually had power and agency? What if we could apply those principles to more online platforms? In many ways I can see that we’ve already started trying, perhaps without even realizing it yet.
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It is still a thought experiment, but it is also MY idea, and if you do take it, I may have to sue you. Welcome to America, BABY!
Right now I feel like Reddit is the best approximation for this space online—it’s why so many people Google “item I’m considering buying + Reddit” because that place offers authenticity and is also *deeply* anti-ad. But—there are a lot of things about Reddit that don’t necessarily lure ME, the exact consumer who reads your work and is part of the cohort of those Substack chats, to be part of that community. So there is definitely something here.
I hope substack chats stays where recs come from real users vs brands but I hope brands mine for insights and data. Listen to consumers. Love your fresh idea for consumer reports (we need this!!) and love that you laid claim to this too.